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Cake day: June 26th, 2024

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  • I like that story because it shows how important it is to take as many perspectives into consideration as possible. True, we don’t know everything and I would argue, this isn’t about knowing more than others in a linear/hierarchical sense, but the whole knows more than the sum of its parts. It’s crucial to take the local perspective into consideration and the paternalistic aspect of the prime directive isn’t necessarily the conclusion itself but jumping to conclusion without involving the locals. This makes it more complex than it might sound since the locals aren’t a monolith. But every decision is paternalistic unless you are willing to really listen to those affected.




  • I think Star Trek could argue either that they have no moral imperative to do ANYTHING at all, ever.

    Well, Star Trek does argue that we have a moral imperative to do nothing and it’s wrong to help. I’m not saying they have to help each and everyone, I’m saying it’s paternalistic to never help. You either agree or disagree with me on that but I don’t quite get what this comment is doing on the agree/disagree binary/spectrum. Your first comment appeared to be on the disagree end.

    If you want to invent warp speed travel, then so too could you:-).

    I’m not sure what you mean. It reads like “it’s you’re fault that you die from a preventable illness we could cure in 5 minutes and that might take you a century to find a cure. If you really wanted help, you could just invent warp travel, not your fault you didn’t”


  • I think it is paternalistic to interfere because “you know better”

    I totally see where you are coming from but hear me out.

    The first mention of the prime directive is a TOS episode which is an explicit allegory of the Vietnam War with federation and Klingon Empire supporting each side (they even mention it, not the name directly but something like "a war in south eastern Asia in the 20 century. Remember, this was during the war itself). This is a total valid critic of imperialism.

    But interference isn’t always about coming with all the solutions and saying we know better. It can be about offering help on eye level, taking the other side serious.

    Let’s take vaccination programs. It is paternalistic to roll out a program that produces results that suit you well and make you look good on paper (looking at you, Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation). It is not paternalistic to be in exchange with the locals to adjust to local needs and most and for most release the patents which didn’t happen with the covid vaccines due to the prime directive argument that only “we” know how to make vaccines safely. (I hope release is the right term, meaning making public domain)

    Edit: TL;DR: Prime Directive is a good concept in it’s first mention that was generalized in the wrong direction


  • Thanks for proving my point by using paternalistic language. So we have no moral obligations to civilizations with magical thinking because they aren’t our cultural equals but inferior? We can just watch them die and do nothing because they believe in zodiacs?

    Besides: magical thinking isn’t even the criterion of the prime directive. It’s about warp technology. If it was about the scientific method, it would make a little more sense but even that’s independent of morality.

    And what do you even mean with ““nice” civilizations”? So primitive/naive civilizations have to learn the hard way what technology can do to finally use the technology for good? We can’t give them vaccines before they had a world war? What has the one thing to do with the other? And how do you use words like “grow up” and claim it’s not paternalistic?

    Paternalistic implies the benefit to be on the recipient

    What does that even mean? I can paternalistically talk down to someone with no benefit or malefic to anyone except maybe an insult. I can control people paternalistically to my benefit and I can help and guide them for their benefit. Paternalistic doesn’t imply any benefit on any side. It’s about hierarchy, about feeling superior to people you don’t deem worthy to make decisions on their own or rather take their view serious and if anything, you confirmed my view that the prime directive is paternalistic.