Your argument seems to be based on the assumption that cishets trying to preserve the gender binary are valid. I understand wanting to appeal to 99% of people, but binary trans people won’t gain freedom to transition by throwing non-binary people under the bus.
I do agree that cis people should support trans people, but I disagree that it should be predicated on their bullshit beliefs. I don’t require them to eat shit, but I will allow it as long as they support the queer community unequivocally 🙂
Sorry if you feel like I’m arguing in bad faith, and of course you don’t need to talk to me.
My point is that being trans is inherently GNC, and excluding nonbinary people as statistically insignificant is really an argument against all trans people, whether they pass or not. I know you’re talking about what cis people think and not what YOU think, but my hope is that cis-passing trans folks that are accepted by “society” on condition of their passing will reject such conditional acceptance. In other words, non-passing GNC folks, such as enbies, need the support of passing trans allies against exclusionary, divisive gender-conforming norms.
I’d like to pass, and maybe one day I will, and I hope I can continue to support less “acceptable” identities.
I don’t think it’s a fair assumption to say pooberbee acted in bad faith. There are some really bad implications in your first comment which are easy to read into your words. Now I’m not saying that’s what you meant and I welcome that you’ve put in some effort to make that clear. But it’s in there nonetheless, I’m glad they pointed that out and took a strong stance against that.
Then you go on pointing out how enbies are a minority and cishets are not, and tbh I have a really hard time understanding how that is relevant at all. To me it seems there’s a rather obvious implication that that somehow means conforming to the majority could be helpful in any way. And in the context of “passing transpeople validating cishets expectations” this is a very bad take, because such validation would in turn invalidate all non-conforming identities, hence the throwing enbies under the bus interpretation.
yeah, my first comment was poorly phrased and did assume the reader wasn’t going to infer that I think cis-sexism is a good thing, but since it’s ambiguous I’ve deleted my comments.
The relevance of enbies as a minorities: you could say I was making a generalization that for most trans people, transitioning will cause them to be more gender conforming. I think most people (both cis and trans) think of transitioning as subversive and as something that increases non-conformity, so the realization this isn’t true for some of us was amusing and felt ironic. I probably felt it was safe to say because it’s an irony that applies to the majority of trans people who medically transition, but there is a minority of trans individuals whose transition goals will put them into less conforming gender roles (where non-conforming is euphoric for them), and that was left out in my initial comments.
Pointing out they are a minority isn’t meant to re-affirm cis-sexism or to deny their validity, it’s meant to point out why I felt it was safe to make the comments I made about transitioning leading to gender conformity without feeling a need to add an asterisks that mentions the exceptions (which obviously exist, and are obviously valid).
I only mentioned cis people (not cis-hets) are 99% of people because I felt it was unfair when pooberbee said cis people can eat shit; that kind of mindset just seems wrong to me, and pointing out that cis people aren’t some minority of evil people but are actually nearly all people might be helpful for them to see why telling nearly everyone to eat shit isn’t a great sentiment.
To me it seems there’s a rather obvious implication that that somehow means conforming to the majority could be helpful in any way.
And in the context of “passing transpeople validating cishets expectations” this is a very bad take, because such validation would in turn invalidate all non-conforming identities, hence the throwing enbies under the bus interpretation.
I don’t think the majority of trans people being binary and thus transitioning in a way that conforms with social norms necessarily invalidates non-conforming identities, but I can understand sensitivity that this is being implied … I think this is where I feel there is consistent bad-faith, on my end there is no implication or intention to call into question non-conforming identities, and I feel nothing I’ve said is inconsistent with the validity of non-conforming identities … to the contrary, my initial comment assumed the default position is that all trans people are by definition seen as non-conforming, and the surprise and irony I was trying to point to is that wow, some of us really end up being gender conforming (against the default belief that transness is inherently subversive and non-conforming).
That said, re-reading my original comment I can see why it reads differently - I think I was just being glib and assuming I was in a safe space where people would understand where I’m coming from. :-/
I’m sorry you had to go through this and hope you can feel safe here again. It’s not easy to deal with a feeling of being pushed into a corner. I’d like to point out that there seems to have been some consensus on giving you the benefit of the doubt, you haven’t been down-voted after all. Personally I had a bad feeling about that first comment, but wasn’t sure enough to comment.
Communication can be really hard, especially if all you have is words, especially when writing to strangers… I’m often very anxious myself about how to write, it’s even in my profile, kinda like a safety net, in case I fuck up. €: Don’t mean to imply you fucked up - it’s been a misunderstanding!
because such validation would in turn invalidate all non-conforming identities
I wasn’t entirely clear there myself. I’d think the bigoted part of our society would likely use this to invalidate everyone who is non-binary.
I’d like to point out that there seems to have been some consensus on giving you the benefit of the doubt, you haven’t been down-voted after all.
I’m on blahaj, so I wouldn’t see downvotes anyway (they’re not federated)
Personally I had a bad feeling about that first comment, but wasn’t sure enough to comment.
I hear you, I guess it’s fair to be wary when it seems like someone is implying enbyphobia, and when I re-read my comment I can see that possibility more clearly (which is part of why I felt it was good to delete my comment - it wasn’t really contributing much anyway).
I think from my end it felt so out of left field and unnecessary, what makes it feel like bad faith is how aggressive it felt, and how disconnected it felt from my original comments.
I’d think the bigoted part of our society would likely use this to invalidate everyone who is non-binary.
I really dislike when the trans community attacks itself as if this is all a zero sum game; on the one hand it feels like “transmedicalists” want to claim that healthcare will be taken away from people who have dysphoria and need medical transition if we open the gate to enbies or other gender diverse people, and on the other side it feels sometimes like binary trans identity is increasingly viewed with suspicion and treated as a kind of betrayal of a subversive, beyond-the-binary trans identity (as if being non-binary is the ideal response to transphobia, and not just a natural category). On the one hand is respectability politics, and on the other hand is counter-cultural separatism. Both can be bad, and neither are necessary.
In the end I don’t think passing trans people being more acceptable actually invalidates non-binary identity, that validation won’t change the fact those bigots are going to reject non-binary identities that are non-conforming … that is, the blame really belongs on the bigots and their bigotry, not on the trans people who receive less hate for being more conformist.
All this to be said, yeah, I dunno - feeling a bit alienated rn - maybe I should just take a break until I’m not sick with the flu and my brain isn’t mush … that would probably help me write things that don’t make people so upset.
I’m on blahaj, so I wouldn’t see downvotes anyway (they’re not federated)
Huh, wasn’t aware, good to know.
Well, you’ve definitely thought about all that for way more than I have, I’m still pretty new to this journey. I do feel a strong desire to pass at some point, but I’m not sure what to make of it at this time.
the blame really belongs on the bigots and their bigotry
That’s something we can absolutely agree on and shouldn’t forget. We are in this together.
I hope you get well soon and wish you the best. And if you’d like, I’ll leave you a virtual hug 🫂.
Your argument seems to be based on the assumption that cishets trying to preserve the gender binary are valid. I understand wanting to appeal to 99% of people, but binary trans people won’t gain freedom to transition by throwing non-binary people under the bus.
I do agree that cis people should support trans people, but I disagree that it should be predicated on their bullshit beliefs. I don’t require them to eat shit, but I will allow it as long as they support the queer community unequivocally 🙂
deleted by creator
Sorry if you feel like I’m arguing in bad faith, and of course you don’t need to talk to me.
My point is that being trans is inherently GNC, and excluding nonbinary people as statistically insignificant is really an argument against all trans people, whether they pass or not. I know you’re talking about what cis people think and not what YOU think, but my hope is that cis-passing trans folks that are accepted by “society” on condition of their passing will reject such conditional acceptance. In other words, non-passing GNC folks, such as enbies, need the support of passing trans allies against exclusionary, divisive gender-conforming norms.
I’d like to pass, and maybe one day I will, and I hope I can continue to support less “acceptable” identities.
I don’t think it’s a fair assumption to say pooberbee acted in bad faith. There are some really bad implications in your first comment which are easy to read into your words. Now I’m not saying that’s what you meant and I welcome that you’ve put in some effort to make that clear. But it’s in there nonetheless, I’m glad they pointed that out and took a strong stance against that.
Then you go on pointing out how enbies are a minority and cishets are not, and tbh I have a really hard time understanding how that is relevant at all. To me it seems there’s a rather obvious implication that that somehow means conforming to the majority could be helpful in any way. And in the context of “passing transpeople validating cishets expectations” this is a very bad take, because such validation would in turn invalidate all non-conforming identities, hence the throwing enbies under the bus interpretation.
Just my two cents.
yeah, my first comment was poorly phrased and did assume the reader wasn’t going to infer that I think cis-sexism is a good thing, but since it’s ambiguous I’ve deleted my comments.
The relevance of enbies as a minorities: you could say I was making a generalization that for most trans people, transitioning will cause them to be more gender conforming. I think most people (both cis and trans) think of transitioning as subversive and as something that increases non-conformity, so the realization this isn’t true for some of us was amusing and felt ironic. I probably felt it was safe to say because it’s an irony that applies to the majority of trans people who medically transition, but there is a minority of trans individuals whose transition goals will put them into less conforming gender roles (where non-conforming is euphoric for them), and that was left out in my initial comments.
Pointing out they are a minority isn’t meant to re-affirm cis-sexism or to deny their validity, it’s meant to point out why I felt it was safe to make the comments I made about transitioning leading to gender conformity without feeling a need to add an asterisks that mentions the exceptions (which obviously exist, and are obviously valid).
I only mentioned cis people (not cis-hets) are 99% of people because I felt it was unfair when pooberbee said cis people can eat shit; that kind of mindset just seems wrong to me, and pointing out that cis people aren’t some minority of evil people but are actually nearly all people might be helpful for them to see why telling nearly everyone to eat shit isn’t a great sentiment.
I don’t think the majority of trans people being binary and thus transitioning in a way that conforms with social norms necessarily invalidates non-conforming identities, but I can understand sensitivity that this is being implied … I think this is where I feel there is consistent bad-faith, on my end there is no implication or intention to call into question non-conforming identities, and I feel nothing I’ve said is inconsistent with the validity of non-conforming identities … to the contrary, my initial comment assumed the default position is that all trans people are by definition seen as non-conforming, and the surprise and irony I was trying to point to is that wow, some of us really end up being gender conforming (against the default belief that transness is inherently subversive and non-conforming).
That said, re-reading my original comment I can see why it reads differently - I think I was just being glib and assuming I was in a safe space where people would understand where I’m coming from. :-/
I’m sorry you had to go through this and hope you can feel safe here again. It’s not easy to deal with a feeling of being pushed into a corner. I’d like to point out that there seems to have been some consensus on giving you the benefit of the doubt, you haven’t been down-voted after all. Personally I had a bad feeling about that first comment, but wasn’t sure enough to comment.
Communication can be really hard, especially if all you have is words, especially when writing to strangers… I’m often very anxious myself about how to write, it’s even in my profile, kinda like a safety net, in case I fuck up. €: Don’t mean to imply you fucked up - it’s been a misunderstanding!
I wasn’t entirely clear there myself. I’d think the bigoted part of our society would likely use this to invalidate everyone who is non-binary.
I’m on blahaj, so I wouldn’t see downvotes anyway (they’re not federated)
I hear you, I guess it’s fair to be wary when it seems like someone is implying enbyphobia, and when I re-read my comment I can see that possibility more clearly (which is part of why I felt it was good to delete my comment - it wasn’t really contributing much anyway).
I think from my end it felt so out of left field and unnecessary, what makes it feel like bad faith is how aggressive it felt, and how disconnected it felt from my original comments.
I really dislike when the trans community attacks itself as if this is all a zero sum game; on the one hand it feels like “transmedicalists” want to claim that healthcare will be taken away from people who have dysphoria and need medical transition if we open the gate to enbies or other gender diverse people, and on the other side it feels sometimes like binary trans identity is increasingly viewed with suspicion and treated as a kind of betrayal of a subversive, beyond-the-binary trans identity (as if being non-binary is the ideal response to transphobia, and not just a natural category). On the one hand is respectability politics, and on the other hand is counter-cultural separatism. Both can be bad, and neither are necessary.
In the end I don’t think passing trans people being more acceptable actually invalidates non-binary identity, that validation won’t change the fact those bigots are going to reject non-binary identities that are non-conforming … that is, the blame really belongs on the bigots and their bigotry, not on the trans people who receive less hate for being more conformist.
All this to be said, yeah, I dunno - feeling a bit alienated rn - maybe I should just take a break until I’m not sick with the flu and my brain isn’t mush … that would probably help me write things that don’t make people so upset.
Huh, wasn’t aware, good to know.
Well, you’ve definitely thought about all that for way more than I have, I’m still pretty new to this journey. I do feel a strong desire to pass at some point, but I’m not sure what to make of it at this time.
That’s something we can absolutely agree on and shouldn’t forget. We are in this together.
I hope you get well soon and wish you the best. And if you’d like, I’ll leave you a virtual hug 🫂.