I was invited to comment here by u/BlazeAlt on Reddit last week regarding ways to lower the barriers to joining the Fediverse for average users — so here I go.
I’m sure a lot of this has been discussed ad nauseam, but I do have some specific starting suggestions at the end.
With corporate, single-instance social media, there’s one place you go sign up, and you’re in. You can find things that interest you with a simple search, and you can find people you know either by their names (Facebook) or by a very simple handle ([at]nickname). And if you’re trying to build up an online identity — say, for your new podcast — if you’re handle is unique enough you can end each episode with “and you can find us at MyNewPodcast on all the socials!”
Federated social media requires you to choose an instance before you can even sign up. But…
[average user voice]
- What the hell’s an “instance”?
- How do I choose one?
- Why do I have to choose one?
- What do their names mean?
- What does the instance I choose say about me? -Does choosing one over another have any effect on the experience I will have?
- How does someone on another instance find me?
- How do I find someone on another instance?
- How do I find topics on another instance? -Does my choice of instance affect my access to those topics?
- Are the rules different on each instance?
- Who sets the rules?
- Where do I find them?
- What if I want to change instances?
- Will anyone be able to find me?
- How will they know I’m still me?
[/end average user voice]
Federated social media also requires weirdly complicated handles. [average user voice]
- Why are there two @ signs?
- What does it mean if there’s a “!” instead of a “@” at the beginning?
- What the hell are all these weird domain names?
- Why can’t I be just [at]TheSameHandleIUsedOnTwitter?
- If I’m trying to create an online identity, what’s to stop someone from using [at]MyHandle[at]SomeOtherInstance.url and posing as me?
- What’s the Lemmy equivalent of a blue check?
- If there isn’t one, how can anyone be sure someone on Lemmy saying they’re me really is me? -I mean, other than starting my own instance with recognizable name — but then I have to learn how to host my own instance.
[/end average user voice]
To be clear: I’m not literally asking these questions. I’m just illustrating some of the hurdles to adoption I described above, and some of the ways in which federated social media is exponentially more complicated than corporate social media.
As for solutions, I don’t have an all-encompassing proposal at the moment. But a good place to start would be to agree upon a single default instance for new users to sign up, so that instead of being faced with “first choose an instance,” it would be…
Welcome to Lemmy.URL, where you can join Lemmy communities for any topic, all over the world! What do you want your username to be?
- [____________]
OK, do you want your username to use a common lemmy “instance,” like…
- [ ] ____________ [at] lemmy.URL
- [ ] ____________ [at] lemm.ee
- [ ] ____________ [at] etc.
OR would you like more custom username connected to a particular Lemmy community, like…
- [ ] ____________ [at] sci-fi-fans.url
- [ ] ____________[at] knittingnuts.url
- [find Lemmy instances where your username is available]
- [I know which Lemmy instance I want to join first]
Choosing a community-based username doesn’t affect how you use Lemmy — no matter what community you chose, you’ll have access to all the same content, communities, users, and feeds.
The [find Lemmy instances] button would lead to a page where you check off various areas of interest to then get a curated subset of relevant instances with a reasonable amount of information about them to help new users select one.
The [I know which instance] button would have you fill in the name of the instance, check if your username is available, then take you to that sign-up page.
So…something akin to join-lemmy.org, but with a flow closers to what I’ve described above, with very few, easy, “common” default choices, and a little more help through the process of choosing a specialized instance (if you want one).
This onboarding suggestion doesn’t solve most of the problems/questions in my bullet lists (ideas still forming), but it would help prevent what happened to me the first few times I looked into Lemmy, which was that as soon as I saw I had to choose an instance before I did anything else — with pretty much zero information on what that meant or how it would affect my use of Lemmy — I said, “I don’t have the time for this.”
BTW, as I write this, my first Lemmy post, I will also add that the comment fields need to be WYSIWYG for if Lemmy ever hopes to be populated by refugees from Reddit, etc. Creating the quote section above was a huge pain in the ass, that required multiple rounds of [Preview] [Edit] [Preview] [Edit] [Preview] [Edit] [Preview] [Edit].
Food for thought. Cheers.
I honestly don’t bother with trying to explain what an “instance” is to people interested in leaving Reddit. I just say “get the app” since most users are on their phones anyway. The only time a new user needs to know about any decentralized/federation stuff is if they’re using a web browser, where, yeah, it can be confusing. But apps hide all federation stuff. Just download it, make an account, and follow communities (or people in Mastodon’s case).
Also thank you for sharing your perspective as a newbie in this community it’s very helpful!
I’m a technophile, been in IT 30+ years now, wrote my first programs in Fortran on punched cards.
I had these same questions, and had to search the web for them, as none of the instances I found had this info up front. Just a generic “create an account page”.
Lemmy suffers from the same issue lots if tech does - it’s driven by tech people, and we are notorious for assuming other people know what we know, plus, we’ll be damned if we’re gonna write any more effing documentation.
Ya want more people, gotta at least explain this stuff on the sign up page, hell, explain it everywhere…always have a link to “What in the world is this Lemmy thing?”
Your points are all correct, but I feel it’s also important to remember that nobody owns and operates “Lemmy”. It’s entirely volunteer operated and while it has two full-time devs, they’re paid by donations (and not very much). There is no budget or UX/UI department to do A/B onboarding testing or anything.
What I’m saying is that if there is something you feel needs changing nobody would stop you (in fact they would welcome you!) from rolling up your sleeves and trying to address it (like @Blaze@lemmy.dbzer0.com is doing with this community)!
I think writing these things may not be as easy as it seems, or the good writers just aren’t volunteering. Anyone is welcome to take a shot at it as the docs are open source on Github, make some pull requests!
https://join-lemmy.org/docs/users/01-getting-started.html
https://github.com/LemmyNet/lemmy-docs/blob/main/src/users/01-getting-started.md
Lemm.ee has this post linked in the sidebar: https://lemm.ee/post/37715
Fedecan, who manages Lemmy.ca has this nice guide linked in the sidebar as well: https://fedecan.ca/en/guide/get-started
LW has a Getting Started post in the sidebar: https://support.lemmy.world/quickstart/
Not sure how to make those posts more visible than they currently are
Some of those are relatively decent explainers, but what’s needed is simplification of the whole onboarding process and UX. Having to read a 2000-word treatise on the Fediverse doesn’t solve the problem of the Fediverse being confusing in the first place. :)
To me, the solution is a streamlined onboarding, like I’ve proposed, driving most people toward one or two common, popular instances where they can just sign up and just find posts that interest them — then let them/help them discover how to further explore once they’ve got the hang of it.
You can’t read about how to use Lemmy any more than you can read about how to ride a bike. And yet, most of the pople trying to drive Lemmy adoption are explaining, explaining, explaining instead of trying to make it simple.
I’m not saying those explainers shouldn’t exist. I’m saying they only help people who want to understand Lemmy rather than helping people who just want somewhere to go for a feed of interesting community topics.
There’s a need for balance between conciseness and details.
As you know, I usually go with
Lemmy is an alternative to Reddit, you can visit https://phtn.app/ to have a look at the content, and install an app using https://vger.app/settings/install.
The issue is that if you only provide this explanation, people don’t really understand why they should switch to what looks like a less populated Reddit while Reddit works fine for them .
The main feature of Lemmy/Mbin/Piefed vs Reddit is that nobody owns the website. You can tell that to potential new joiners. But it might confuse them even more. “What do you mean, nobody owns the website? Who operates it, then? Who pays the bills?” At that point, you might have to explain, even briefly, what is federation, otherwise you might just come off as a “trust me, I tell you it’s better, but I won’t tell you why”
BTW, if anyone here has any connection with Voyager, let them know that their sign-up/application page needs different coloring. On my phone, the “Application answer” box — that the page says must be filled out — is literally invisible because the box is black, and the background is…basically black. I had to tap, and tap, and tap, and tap around before I got a cursor.
Federation can be explained at the 10,000-foot level by just saying something like, “You know how Reddit subs are moderated by volunteer from the community, and Wikipedia is edited by volunteers? Lemmy has volunteers all the way down. It’s coded by volunteers, it’s hosted by hundreds of volunteers, and all those independent instances connect together to make a whole that serves the same purpose as a Reddit or Facebook.” That’s just off the top of my head. I was toying with a a simile about cruise ships vs. a flotilla of fishing boats, but that one got a way from me. I’ll come up with better descriptions later. It’s something I’m fairly good at.
IMO it’s gatekeeping. I got the feeling there’s a group in the threadiverse that don’t want reddit refugees.
To them, it’s a feature, not a bug
Lemm.ee has this post linked in the sidebar: https://lemm.ee/post/37715
Fedecan, who manages Lemmy.ca has this nice guide linked in the sidebar as well: https://fedecan.ca/en/guide/get-started
LW has a Getting Started post in the sidebar: https://support.lemmy.world/quickstart/
Not sure how to make those posts more visible than they currently are
From my 10 year reddit experience, hardly anyone reads the sidebar until shoved down the throat.
I’m expecting the same from recent reddit refugees.
Although one could argue having a DM pop in right after sign up and they would ignore it as well. Projection from me, but that’s what I did when I subbed to a subreddit that has a welcoming DM. I don’t doubt others do to.
To the defense of the me turned instances, there’s only so much admins can do. Leading a horse to the water and all, as the saying goes
An automated default instance selection is a must.
I would even go as far as removing the additional selection screens. Just have a small “choose custom instance” button with a “feel free to ignore this” clarification text.
An automated default instance selection is a must.
Who manages this, and who defines the criteria?
I’m personally recommending Lemm.ee by default nowadays, with posts like this
What is Lemmy in one sentence?
Lemmy is an alternative to Reddit, you can visit https://phtn.app/ to have a look at the content, and install an app using https://vger.app/settings/install.
https://old.reddit.com/r/BuyFromEU/comments/1j0xkqa/lemmy_as_an_alternative_to_reddit_using/
Seems to address most of OP points without needing to rework join-lemmy.org
Actually, that Reddit post was exactly the thing that got me thinking about this in the first place. That is not a post for average people. It starts out with an attempt at a simple explanation — “No need to understand federation, servers, or any technical jargon” — but very quickly devolves into exactly those things it said you didn’t need to understand. For example, it uses the word “server” 21 times without ever explaining what the word means. And, as I mentioned elsewhere, explainers shouldn’t be necessary. What’s needed is a cleaner, simpler UX. I’ve started by suggesting a clearer, simpler onboarding process. The rest I’m still noodling.
I posted another version of that post on /r/BoycottUnitedStates: https://old.reddit.com/r/BoycottUnitedStates/comments/1jrcrh6/lemmy_as_an_nonus_alternative_to_red_dit_using/
I explicitly added another disclaimer to address your point
That was the very easy version. No need to understand federation, servers, or any technical jargon.
**If you are still reading, it means that you want to know more about how things are running. **Good idea!
Who manages this, and who defines the criteria?
That’s exactly the kind of thing the Lemmy community needs to figure out together. There doesn’t have to be just one, but there should only be a handful, and they should work basically the same way. Ideally some consortium or committee would come together to agree on a simplified protocol for onboarding. I realize that’s easier said than done in the early, Wild West days of Lemmy. But if the Fediverse is going to take off and undermine the billionaire-run social media networks, it needs to be easy enough for your grandma to understand it, and be able to sign up and get around without getting lost of confused.
That’s a good intro text. Mine is similar.
Who manages this, and who defines the criteria?
You probably want a single URL like join-lemmy.org that manages the selector.
Would likely need some algorithm based on geography and referral data, with some amount of randomisation.
There is no simple solution, but removing instance selection (or any discussion around federation) is a must for on-boarding.
Mind you, I do think there is value in talking about the benefits of federation - e.g. “A single entity cannot buy out Lemmy, it is designed to withstand such takeovers and remain independent”, but not about specific when people are just joining. The ones who are interested will figure it all out themselves.
Very much agree with this. Multiple onboarding instances that all work basically the same way, routing new users to them based on geography and language to start, and maybe when the sign-up in complete, the first post they see is an automated very basic primer that includes something about that Lemmy isn’t owned by anyone, let alone by a giant corporation that wants to collect and sell their identity.
What do you think of https://pangora.social/join ?
That’s not bad. The graphics are immediately distracting, and if you don’t understand what they’re meant to symbolize, they’re just annoying. I still think a just a handful of general instances is a better idea because most people don’t think of social media a place they go for one or two interests, but a place they go for everything including those interests. Having said that, it’s a good flow…until you drill down far enough for it to become a cul-de-sac problem:
- Entertainment — OK, sounds good
- Movies & TV — so far so good
- Star Trek (and nothing else) — well, no, so…now what? I guess this isn’t for me
Yes, you can go back to the previous screen, but now you know there’s nothing here specific to your interests, so if you do stick around, you’re stuck just casting about for something to latch on to.
This is why it would be better to just have a couple general instances, get people onboard, then have them start exploring.
whoa, that is very cool! I do think some things could be tweaked, but other than that, it seems perfect!
You probably want a single URL like join-lemmy.org that manages the selector.
Indeed, but my question was more: who decides to add or remove an instance from the selector. The current join-lemmy.org website still recommends lemmy.ml, as join-lemmy is managed by the lemmy.ml admins. The consensus nowadays seems to be that lemmy.ml isn’t probably the best recommendation for a new joiner (except if they agree with the .ml political stance, but that’s not every new joiner)
https://pangora.social/join might be closer solution. Still, there is the risk of the person managing that website to arbitrarily remove an instance because they can.
There needs to be some kind of group effort — some kind of committee or something. Create couple general instances “co-owned” by 50 admins from 50 instances — something like that.
How the handful of “introductory” instances are created, chosen, and maintained is definitely an issue that needs to be worked out. But they could be instances that are deliberately as general-interest as possible, but feature content (possible in different colors?) from other instances. New users get their bearings, get a taste for what’s out there, and slowly wander away from the “museum lobby” to start exploring different “galleries.”
Ooo. I feel a metaphor coming on! going to do some brainstorming here:
- Facebook, Reddit, Twitter, et al are like a huge Walmart — you can find a little of everything there, but the experience is uninspiring and uniform, and the people running it are all about the profit, not about quality or a good experience, or customer care, and a single point of entry and exit
- The Fediverse is like a big farmer’s market — a lot of independent merchants coming together with their different booths, and food trucks, and stages, and all kinds of different merchandise and services. You can come into the farmer’s market from a bunch of different directions, and wander around or make a beeline for your favorite booths and hang out there all day.
Of course, that’s somewhat undercuts my suggestion of having a general-interest instance, but maybe it’s a farmer’s market with a main entrance or something…
/work in progress
Best option would be a contracted out 3rd party that gets baseline payment for managing the onboarding landing page and an additional bonus for 12 MAU growth.
ML should of course be removed from the default instance pool. The Lemmy Devs should understand why this needs to be done if they are acting in good faith. Any Marxist-leninists and supporters of russian genocidal imperialism can find ML via other means.
payment
lol
sorry, but there’s not much money being passed around here…
I get that, I am saying in an optimal world. Like if Europe happened to give a grant for independent European-hosted social networks.
Yep, join .world, maybe switch later once you know your way around
- An instance is a server that runs a federated platform such as Lemmy.
- You should avoid lemmy.world, lemmy.ml, lemmygrad.ml and hexbear.net.
- Because this is how the Fediverse is designed to work. No way around it.
- Nothing. They are random names by their owners.
- Not much unless you specifically choose it and then defend it. For example lemmy.ml or lemmygrad.ml.
- Mostly no, but yes, it can. You should choose a instance that has good admins, up to date and not lots of defederations
- Your user gets federated to other instances. Though if your user hasn’t commented on any community, or did but the community is also unknown to most other instances, then your account will not be found. In that case, you can mention such people with this syntax:
!<username>@<instance domain> - Read above
- Communities? When someone from your instance subscribes to a community on a remote instance, it is also available for you. If not, you can subscribe to an unknown community with this syntax:
!<community name>@<instance domain>. Note that the community will only contain 20 of the new posts and without the upvotes and comments. They need to be fetched on demand via links. - Defederation is a thing. Read point 6.
- Yes.
- The admins
- The rules are either in the meta community, on the sidebar or in some external website, which should be linked on the sidebar.
- You change. You can’t take your comments/posts with you. But you can transfer ownership of your communities. You also can export your settinga and import them in your new account. That includes your subscribed communities, which will be subscribed to once again on your new account.
- Read point 7
- There are some services like keyoxide that can help you be identified across supported websites. Digital signatures are also an option.
- The first one is used to mention someone, the second one is to identify the instance the user is on.
- Read point 7 and 9
- Read point 4
- You can. Display names are optional, changeable names. They can’t be used to tag a community or mention a user, but is just there visually.
- Nothing. You should have a way to identify yourself across the fediverse. Read point 16.
- Nothing. There’s no such thing here.
- Read point 16.
- Read above
I’m sorry, but you’ve completely missed the point of this post. I wasn’t literally asking those questions (and I did literally say exactly that). That’s why each set of questions was couched in an [average user voice] “tag”. The point is that these are things nobody needs to ask when signing up for Facebook, etc. They are barriers to anyone to joining Lemmy for who isn’t already highly tech-literate.
They are barriers to anyone to joining Lemmy for who isn’t already highly tech-literate.
https://lemm.ee/c/thebirdspapaya_snark@lemmy.ca
This community is dedicated to discuss a Canadian lifestyle influencer. As you might expect, they are not really highly tech-literate.
Still, they managed to join lemmy.ca fine: https://lemm.ee/post/33870928
I posted a small guide when they joined: https://lemm.ee/post/33917645
It’s been 10 months, and they are still there, keeping the community active.
What this means is that Lemmy in its current state can be used by people who are not highly tech-literate. You even people not having any idea what instance they use. “I just use Voyager to scroll content, and I’m fine with that”.
The main issue Lemmy is facing is Reddit network-effect and user inertia, but even Bluesky is struggling to really compete with Twitter, and they are a Twitter clone funded by venture capital with a huge marketing budget.
OK, so here’s the thing: I follow this link…
https://lemm.ee/post/33870928 …and I see that it’s from 10 months ago, and I see above you say “they’re still there, keeping the community active” — which is nice to hear… But looking at that page, I don’t have the slightest idea how to get from that post to the rest of that community. Apparently, I click “thebirdspapaya_snark@lemmy.ca” at the top of the sidebar — but that’s not readily apparent. There’s no name for the community that I can see — only what looks like an email addy, which is meaningless to me as a casual visitor. And while you say the community is “active,” when I do click that link, I see only 4 posts in the last month. Those posts do seem to have pretty good engagement, and lots of activity today, so I guess weekly threads are just how they roll.
But it doesn’t, on the surface, look like a place where there’s engaging new content on the regular. And the fact that the community name looks like an email address is just confusing — especially since both the community’s header and subhead are exactly the same address.
I can see how to you this might look like thriving example of average users on Lemmy. But what I see is everything that makes Lemmy confusing and off-putting.
fixed your link to the community https://lemmy.ca/c/thebirdspapaya_snark
or !thebirdspapaya_snark@lemmy.ca
But you’re right, motivated users will make it work. People who are just pretending to take a moral stand against Reddit will continue to complain and think up new excuses and questions without ever moving
Thanks, fixed
I know. Which is why I answered them, so that any potential newcomers can read the answers to their most frequently asked questions.
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